Hugh Jackman on Decisions and Routines

Tim Ferriss

I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

Hugh Jackman

Can I ask you a personal question?

Tim Ferriss

Now would it seem like a perfect time?

Hugh Jackman

What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show.

Tim Ferriss

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This isn't just any other episode. It is a very special and exciting one for me, but let's back up. This show is about deconstructing world-class performers to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply to your own life. And this particular episode, I think, delivers the goods and then some. My guest is Hugh Jackman. I've wanted to have Hugh on the show for a very, very long time. Who is Hugh Jackman? If you have to ask that, I don't know where you've been living under a rock. I'll keep this intro short. Hugh Jackman is an Academy Award-nominated Golden Globe and Tony Award-winning performer who has made an impression on audiences around the world, certainly audiences of all ages, With his multi-hyphenate career persona. He's done everything. He is as successful on stage in front of live crowds as he is on film. He's a beast in the gym.

Tim Ferriss

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. This isn't just any other episode. It is a very special and exciting one for me, but let's back up. This show is about deconstructing world-class performers to tease out the habits, routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply to your own life. And this particular episode, I think, delivers the goods and then some. My guest is Hugh Jackman. I've wanted to have Hugh on the show for a very, very long time. Who is Hugh Jackman? If you have to ask that, I don't know where you've been living under a rock. I'll keep this intro short. Hugh Jackman is an Academy Award-nominated Golden Globe and Tony Award-winning performer who has made an impression on audiences around the world, certainly audiences of all ages, With his multi-hyphenate career persona. He's done everything. He is as successful on stage in front of live crowds as he is on film. He's a beast in the gym. This man does it all. You can find him on Instagram, at TheHughJackman, Twitter, at RealHughJackman. On Facebook, Hugh Jackman. And there is one resource I'll mention here. He talks about converting photographs into puzzles. And the website for that is portraitpuzzles.com. It'll all make sense. He'll tie it all together. And without further ado, please

Tim Ferriss

The goods and then some. My guest is Hugh Jackman. I've wanted to have Hugh on the show for a very, very long time. Who is Hugh Jackman? If you have to ask that, I don't know where you've been living under a rock. I'll keep this intro short. Hugh Jackman is an Academy Award-nominated Golden Globe and Tony Award-winning performer who has made an impression on audiences around the world, certainly audiences of all ages, With his multi-hyphenate career persona. He's done everything. He is as successful on stage in front of live crowds as he is on film. He's a beast in the gym. This man does it all. You can find him on Instagram, at TheHughJackman, Twitter, at RealHughJackman. On Facebook, Hugh Jackman. And there is one resource I'll mention here. He talks about converting photographs into puzzles. And the website for that is portraitpuzzles.com. It'll all make sense. He'll tie it all together. And without further ado, please enjoy a wide-ranging, thoroughly enjoyable conversation with none other than Hugh Jackman. One quick note on timing for context. This episode was recorded on May 21st, 2020, before the death of George Floyd. Hugh, welcome to the show.

Hugh Jackman

Tim, great to be here, man. I'm very excited.

Tim Ferriss

I am so thrilled that we are able to connect on the podcast. I've wanted to do this for

Hugh Jackman

You'll notice things you have never noticed before.

Tim Ferriss

Oh, I'm in. All right. My complacency has been called. I will read the over story. Stick with it.

Hugh Jackman

It works on you in the way nature does. It's patient and it's in no rush. It's slow and it's steady and it's true.

Tim Ferriss

For decades now, and you and Deb meditate in the mornings. And I say that as a segue because at least for me, meditation has been a tool that helps to provide clarity in some respects. Could you describe your meditation practice and what you feel are the main benefits that are derived from that practice? Sure.

Hugh Jackman

I was introduced to meditation when I was at drama school. And it was a form of transcendental meditation. There's lots of different types of meditation. Just very briefly, it involves the use of a mantra, which you are given, which you repeatedly sound. And the very basic concept is that the nature of our minds is to always be working, always be thinking. And the trick to life is not letting that mind be your master, but to let it be a servant. Then it's an incredible thing. Once it's running the show, it's very easy to get off track. So during this period of meditation, you are given a mantra, which was described to me as the mind is often called the monkey mind in Eastern philosophies. So a monkey is very energetic and if not given something to do, will be mischievous. So the mantra is like basically saying to the monkey mind, I need you to climb to the top of that telegraph pole. And when you get to the top, I need you to climb back down. And when you get to the bottom, I need you to climb back up. And when you get to the top, I need you to climb back down. So it's just giving this activity. So the mantra or this word that is silently repeated ends up fading away. And the best way I can describe it is the effect that it has on me. I mean, sometimes I fall asleep, by the way, which is totally fine and clearly what my body needed. But when you first pour a glass of water, it's cloudy and then in a period of time that all settles and you see crystal clear through the glass, through the water. That's what meditation does for me. It's got that feeling where things drop down. I have a feeling of coming home, the feeling of experiencing my true

Hugh Jackman

Stuff. That sounds to me like, wow, I didn't even know the human body could do that, let alone the amount of training it goes for. That kind of pushing through, that energy that pushes through pain. Or if you see that documentary, Kim Swims, when I watch her, I just go, wow, that's amazing to me because I know in my heart that I was born to be on the stage. It's taken me a long time to feel the same feeling on a sound stage for acting. One of my favorite movies of all time, and definitely my favorite quote from a movie of all time, from Chariots of Fire, which I loved as a kid. And Eric Liddell, who's the religious runner who decides not to run on the Sabbath during the Olympics. You've seen the movie, right? I have. Yeah. So there's this great scene. He's meant to be going off after the Olympics to do missionary work in China, handing out Bibles or something. And his sister's talking to him. She's like, you've got to throw away this silly running thing. We have really important work, God's work to do. Why are you doing this and spending time on this? Basically kind of accusing him of not following God's will. And he just says, he looks at her and he says, but I feel his pleasure when I run. And I've always, somehow that line, it always makes me tear up just saying it. That's what I feel on stage. There's a kind of natural energy. And what I keep saying to my kids, actually, don't settle, find that thing that resonates with you in that

Hugh Jackman

Don't go out after any shot. And I would love you to come and see. I'm doing the music man come, but I never go out. And that's a blanket rule. I don't go out with anybody. Partly because the party I've just had on stage is better than anything I can imagine anywhere else. But the other thing is I think it's really important for me to get quiet, to allow what has happened, the energy of what has happened, because there is a lot of energy. I mean, I think I'm the only actor I know who I can be asleep within 45 minutes after getting off stage. There's something very calming. It's not, it's like you've had your greatest workout, you have a bath, that feeling after the bath, after a great workout in the evening where you just can sit and be at peace with yourself, That I love. So I limit the amount of coffee I have just because you're battling dehydration with stage work all the time. I always, I have, I know what my routine is before I go on stage and I'm religious about it. And that's more about quieting my mind. I don't ever want my monkey mind saying, oh, you didn't do your warm-up today, or you only half did it, or this or that. You haven't stretched. You haven't done that. You didn't really eat very well today. My mind can easily pick up on that, the perfectionist side of me. I

Hugh Jackman

In education. That's one he would say to us. Says, if you're ever in doubt of what to do, go and learn more, is what he would say. Your actions, that one, it was, I actually now remember it. It was, I was very, we grew up very religious. My father was converted by Billy Graham and my mother and father, I think, went to the Billy Graham crusade and my father was not religious at all and became a born-again Christian. My mother did not. That was one of the things, actually, I think, that brought the end of their marriage. They sort of went down different paths. And so my dad was not a Bible basher. He rarely talked about it. And I remember saying, Dad, because I was really about 13, 14, I was really in school, church groups, fellowship groups. And I got one of those stickers that you put on the back of the car. And I said, Dad, we should put that like we're meant to do that. We're meant to spread the word and do this. And when he said that to me, I was disappointed. I thought he was copping out. But only later did I realize that when he said, people should know you're a Christian through your actions, you're so much more powerful. If someone eventually comes up to you and says, you know, there's something about you, man. I don't know what it is, but I'd love to know where I can get it, you know, then

Tim Ferriss

Feeling it? And I'm asking in part because I've spent a lot of my life trapped in the front of my brain, hyper-analyzing things. And it has often been a disservice because it's overpowered feelings, intuition on deals, partnerships, friends, or foes that I should have listened to, right? So I'd just be curious to know how you have developed a relationship with listening to that.

Hugh Jackman

Yeah, I've never been asked this question. I think this is probably the most vexing, most important, vital thing to work out in your life, certainly in my life. And I think about it a lot. To answer the question, what I do now, I just, I think I need to take you back. I've never really said this before publicly, this particular thing I'm going to say, but as I told you, I was brought up in a very religious household. So a lot of the messages I was getting and instructions for life came through the examples of Jesus and through all these characters and the parables in the Bible. And I carry them very close to my heart. I can remember praying nightly for, I don't know how long, to God. I remember just saying, I don't care, God, what it is you want me to do. If you want me to collect trash, I'll collect trash. If you want me to, I do not care. But please make it clear to me what you want me to do. Please make that clear. I had much more fear of being on the wrong path than I had fear of failing at a path, if that makes sense. That whatever that decision was, whatever that moment of clarity becomes, whatever gets you to that feeling of Eric Liddell on Chariots of Fire, I feel his pleasure when I run. For me, that was always, and I carry it today, even though my feelings about religion are different than what they were when I was younger, the essence is the same, that there is some calling. As Joseph Campbell would talk about, follow your bliss,

Hugh Jackman

There is some calling that is beyond the conscious brain's strategizing of how to be happy and successful or meaningful in life. There's something elemental and instinctual. And honing that, the people I admire the most really hone that ability in big decisions in life and in too small day-to decisions. So now I still, like you, battle with that because I can be dominated by my mind, my brain, pros and cons, think this through. And I have been working with a life coach, Lauren Zander, now for four years. And this is one of the biggest things we focus on, really understanding what it is you're here for, what it is you want to do, having those priorities very clearly set out so that those Turning points in your life become clear. And just to add to that, when you get married or when you make a commitment, a lifelong commitment to someone and you have kids, then the first question Dev and I will always ask, is this Good or bad for

Hugh Jackman

Clear. And just to add to that, when you get married or when you make a commitment, a lifelong commitment to someone and you have kids, then the first question Dev and I will always ask, is this Good or bad for our family? So if it's bad, we won't do it. If it's good, we will. So that's a very simple thing, but that's my number one priority. And I just remembered the thing about my dad. I don't think I said it. When I got famous and things were going really well for me, he turned to me and said, don't forget to always check that everything's okay with Deb at every point. And I was like, oh, okay, that's great advice. So anyway, I got off pace. But the decision making, I still ask for that every day. And I should have mentioned this up front in terms of that first question you asked me in terms of performing and the things you do, you know, daily. I do a daily design every day. I create as if in the past tense of what the day had been. Dreams can be crazy. It can be wild. And then at the end of the day, I score it out of 10. I keep myself accountable to what I was trying to manifest or make happen. And one thing, a consistent theme in that is that I listen to the messages,

Hugh Jackman

Kids, then the first question Dev and I will always ask, is this good or bad for our family? So if it's bad, we won't do it. If it's good, we will. So that's a very simple thing, but that's my number one priority. And I just remembered the thing about my dad. I don't think I said it. When I got famous and things were going really well for me, he turned to me and said, don't forget to always check that everything's okay with Deb at every point. And I was like, oh, okay, that's great advice. So anyway, I got off pace. But the decision making, I still ask for that every day. And I should have mentioned this up front in terms of that first question you asked me in terms of performing and the things you do, you know, daily. I do a daily design every day. I create as if in the past tense of what the day had been. Dreams can be crazy. It can be wild. And then at the end of the day, I score it out of 10. I keep myself accountable to what I was trying to manifest or make happen. And one thing, a consistent theme in that is that I listen to the messages, that they come in crazy ways. They come in strange, but

Hugh Jackman

Going with that, that moment was one of the most transformative in the entire thing, and I have no idea why it came to me, and I have no idea why I stopped. But I'm really grateful I did.

Tim Ferriss

It seems to me, from the outside looking in at least, that you've cultivated the ability to surrender in specific circumstances like that, if that makes any sense at all. Yeah. And that seems to be a huge strength. I want to come back to something you said. I've had to work on that, by the way.

Hugh Jackman

I really have, because I can be a bit of a control. How have you worked on it? With Lauren Zander, my coach, she always joking. She goes, oh, hello, Perfect Tommy. She's like, you've got this alter ego, Perfect Tommy in there. She gets it from Buckaroo Bonsai. I don't know if you ever saw that 80s movie.

Tim Ferriss

Yeah, I know the movie.

Hugh Jackman

Yeah. So, and Perfect Tommy, right? She goes, oh, you're Perfect Tommy. So, you know, sometimes even when you gave me that compliment at the beginning, when you say, you know, you seem to be, you know, you're always kind to everyone. I'm like, is that the real me or is that just Perfect Tommy? You know? So, but she's really made me work on that and to trust myself do the work that you need to do don't do an ounce more than you need to do and I was more prone to be an over worker an over worrier And miss some of the fun of my life because of it and I've really worked hard on doing that on film of letting go on stage of not letting my own expectations get in the way.

Tim Ferriss

And if we come back to the design of the day, if I'm remembering the phrasing you used, is that a paragraph that you write down in a journal or type out in the morning, which, if I'm getting This right, is today

Hugh Jackman

Fun of my life because of it and I've really worked hard on doing that on film of letting go on stage of not letting my own expectations get in the way.

Tim Ferriss

And if we come back to the design of the day, if I'm remembering the phrasing you used, is that a paragraph that you write down in a journal or type out in the morning, which, if I'm getting This right, is today I did X. Today I felt this. It's past tense for the day to come.

Hugh Jackman

It's happened. So it's, yes, it's past tense. It's already happened. There's no, I really hope. I think that I'm going to try. I will, like today, my son and I had the best hour together, laughing and talking, and we connected on some of the most elemental things in ways we've never connected that kind of thing It would it will have um and i do that every morning on a text which i send to her because as she says you know we all need to be accountable to someone um and i'm looking in them now, our relationship Goes to new levels of honesty and intimacy. So that's, you know, just that kind of thing that Deb and I can, who it's the best, really the most successful part of my life, is my family life, but want to go for more. There's new levels. There's other things. There must

Hugh Jackman

Went to my trainer and he goes, who was a rower? And he said, you want to get lean? Rowe. So as well as the ice baths that I learned from your book, which I used all through the Wolverines, particularly the later Wolverines, when you see me in better shape, that's a great way To lose fat. Um, but seven minute row four times a week. And the goal is 2000 meters. And, and when you try it at some point, you're going to hate me for it, but still that's the quickest, best way.

Tim Ferriss

That's, that's excellent advice. Yeah. The rower hits your your entire posterior chain and then you do some push-ups and you're in good shape. Yeah.

Hugh Jackman

It's such a good building exercise for deadlifts and all these core movements, compound movements, getting your scapula, everything sort of in the right place and you're breathing And relaxing your neck, you know, at the same time as doing it. Um, yeah, I would say the roller.

Tim Ferriss

And I love the, the 85% run at 85% effort example that you gave. I find so much truth in that statement. I haven't ever thought of it, but you could apply that to sitting down and writing. You could apply it to almost anything where being overtense is not your friend. It's not going to help you. No, no.

Hugh Jackman

And that's my, like, everyone's got different things. If I was coaching me, myself, like if I was the coach and Hugh Jackman was on my team, I wouldn't put more pressure on him, push him more. I wouldn't yell at him, scream. I've got that motivation. If anything, I have had to work from building up insecurity. So I'm not good enough. I need to work extra hard. If I do everything perfectly and I work my ass off, then I'll be okay, that kind of thing, which in the end does certainly limit your ability to enjoy your life or enjoy the row or the show Or anything like that. But it doesn't get the best out of you. It really doesn't. So I mentally quite often during the day just before I do an activity, imagine that it's done, that feeling I have when it's done and gone well, and I go into it with that. I love that. So Viktor Frankl quote, live life as though it's the second time around, but you got it wrong the first time. It's a good one, and that's what works for me. Or even if you practice a simple thing, just sit down, and as you're breathing in imagine that you're breathing out because a lot of us me included and I and I got this from my singing teacher Um I breathe in with a all right I'm gonna sing this big